CR: 21 years, 1,100 live shows, and 11 studio albums later, the band has decided to call it quits. I'm pleased to welcome Trey to this table for the first time to talk about the Phish phenomenon, and the fact that they have come to the decision to stop. Can I get you to change your mind?
TA: Umm...
CR: There's a little bit of nostalgia watching this.
TA: What I was going to say is no, you won't be able to get me to, but watching that clip of Madison Square Garden, you can get me to be sad, in a certain way, seeing that you know, um, but I know it is the right choice, I just know it is.
CR: Why?
TA: I think that, okay I'm going to say this and I desperately want to show respect to our audience who has been so great, beyond. And I know that people are confused by this probably to some degree. But if you step back and look at it, we started when I was 18. I'm 40 years old, I have two kids... so do the other guys, they have kids now.
CR: Mick Jagger is 60 years old and he's got more than two.
TA: That's true. Its not that, I don't want to really put on it. It's a feeling for 18 years, the first 18 probably; it was the center of everything. We didn't build in any, we didn't build in vacations, or any place to have a life outside of Phish. And I see bands that last a long time. When we walked in we were talking about Bruce Springsteen as an example. There are periods of time when he's been at home, right?
CR: He's in one of those periods right now.
TA: He is. Well we never really did that. And we have a large organization, probably 20 or 30 employees or are within a large office, and this thing needs us to keep touring. But that's not the real reason .
CR: So the family, it's a reason but not the real reason.
TA: It's a reason.
CR: You need to keep touring to support an infrastructure, that's a reason but not the real reason?
TA: Well I say that because I've been going through that over the last two years, is this the reason. And I think that its at the point for the four of us, we wanted Phish, we wanted it to be the center of everything. And when it is it's so incredible. When it was it was so incredible. The experience of the concerts, when we spent 5 hours a day practicing. When we lived and breathed Phish, was beyond intimate. It really was. And I don't know that the people who didn't see Phish really could understand that. But I know the people who did go see Phish do. And I know that there's probably some anger now because we're taking that away. But what I saw happening was that it was going away naturally. We're all growing up and starting to have lives, so we're putting less and less effort into it. And personally I would like to see it respected by stopping. Doing 13 more shows, the best we can, and then, letting it be, letting it go, and moving on and having the rest of our lives.
CR: I certainly don't want to put words into your mouth, but I hear you saying this thing that we had created was so much, we honored it so much, we believed in it, we sacrificed for it, it was enormously good to us, we had a fan base that loved us and came to our concerts and each of them was a new experience. But what it might have come to is that you were not, in your own judgment, what you were doing now, it didn't have something that was there before.
TA: Yea.
CR: And what was that?
TA: And that was the hard thing to admit.
CR: What was it?
TA: Some kind of focus. I mean it started; this has been my opinion, the truth of what happened. We went through this millennium concert: Big Cypress, in Florida. We played all night. We played from we played actually two days. But the last set was from 11:15 or something on New Year's Eve until eight, seven or eight in the morning. It was incredible, and it was, for me it was the greatest, it was the pinnacle. And when we came offstage, I looked at our drummer, Fish, my best friend, and just a man I love dearly, and we looked at each other and we both had tears in our eyes, maybe we should stop? It just felt like the wave had crashed into the shore. But we didn't. We went out for another year, then we took this hiatus as an attempt to revitalize. And when we came back it was just different. You know, and um...
CR: And you knew then.
TA: I think so.
CR: Well you knew that it wasn't quite the same.
TA: Not quite the same.
CR: Not that it would end, but it wasn't quite the same.
TA: And not to say that it isn't good still. But it was so good, and it was so beautiful and lucky. It was so lucky. We were so lucky. It just doesn't happen. I don't know, when I think about it...
CR: The magic.
TA: Yea I, what happened? We were playing in this little band around Burlington, and all the sudden, this? and uh, I want to look at it like that. And I look at all - when we were in our meeting on Friday talking about this I...
CR: The meeting called by you.
TA: Called by me, yes, where I went in and I, pretty much I said I can't do this anymore.
CR: Were they surprised?
TA: Yep.
CR: They were surprised. They knew it was coming, they thought we're going to' talk about the tour, we're going to talk about something, business.
TA: They each thought we were going to talk about something else. They knew there was something going on, and it is important to acknowledge the fact that I've been incredibly tired over the last four years, and the thing has been wearing me down. And my mother and my wife and my dad, everybody's been chiming in, you know, "you can't do this anymore, its got to stop." So they weren't surprised that I called the meeting. As a matter of fact the first thing about of Page's mouth was, "I'm so happy that you're having the foresight to say this, because I've been watching you," and he was saying he was exhausted, so since he's not the center of this whole thing he had been calling me for the last few months, you know, and we're friends, we love each other, and he's been seeing what's going on, and it was just tiring. 21 years, you know? But I think he was thinking maybe we're going to axe the whole organization or something like that. When I said that though it only took about a couple minutes before most of the other guys jumped right in with what I said, they were on my side.
CR: That's one of the important questions. Most of the other guys.
TA: Yes.
CR: With one exception.
TA: Yep.
CR: Who?
TA: Mike.
CR: Mike. He didn't want to do it.
TA: No.
CR: He didn't believe it was the right thing to do.
TA: Yeah, and I want to be very careful to not put words into his mouth. But I also don’t want to paint a picture that we are this gleeful little club of people all wanting to stop, I think he was a little bit of, umm, he didn't say he was in disagreement but he said I'm not on completely the same page as you guys, I think that we could, through work, maybe find a way to revitalize this thing again, and find that… magic.
CR: Do you believe that, i.e.: that the magic might, you might have been able to find it, or do you believe it was just gone and you were fool enough to recognize it.
TA: well I don't believe it would be possible without, we would need an enormous amount of distance, because we’ve been completely existing as human beings within the context of a group dynamic and that’s becoming over the years more of a group dynamic. In the beginning you know, it wasn’t as much of a democracy as it became, which is fine, but which starts to get tiring.
CR: You get more of a democracy.
TA: Yeah, and more of a democracy spreading out, not even just the 4 of us anymore. The example I use; I see you have our new album over there.
CR: I do.
TA: And we spent about a week.
CR: This is yours, and this is the new album.
TA: That’s mine, and that’s the new Phish album.
TA: We spent a week deciding whether to put that square box around the word Phish on the cover.
CR: Really?
TA: And it was about 20 different people chiming in and going to the meeting in the office. In contrast, when that album came out, I made the cover, it was easy, fun, and everything is like a giant boat, ya know what I'm saying, in order to turn it, its gotten so big and its not anyone’s fault, because anyone that’s involved, I think its an natural occurrence, and I think that if we were to step away with pride, now, we could then, 10 years from now, or 20, look back and think I was part of something that was magic from the beginning to the end. I didn’t do what virtually all of the people that I admire seem to do, which is let it go on longer then it should.
CR: Tell me more about what you thought was lost. Because all of your fans and let me just read you some email I received today because they knew you were coming here. Why, Trey, Why? Three words this is, ya know? I just want you to know how thankful we are as a community, a community that would not exist if it weren’t for you, thank you.
TA: Aww.
CR: A question for Trey, how could they decide to just quit suddenly and not even have a farewell tour to say goodbye to everyone else in the country?
CR: But there will be some of that.
TA: Yeah, there will be.
CR: The fans are what made Phish what they are they would not be a successful touring band does not become a success unless…of course we know that. Why was the statement on Phish.com from you and you alone?
TA: I can answer that!
CR: Ok.
TA: Ok, we talked about that at length because other times in our history we have tried to make a statement as a group and it gets watered down. I don’t know if you ever saw the Doonesbury cartoon, “War is bad…”
CR: Yeah, right, right.
TA: That one.
TA: That’s what happened, we had a vote, talked about who should do it and Fish came forward and said it has to be you, Page went and wrote one too, and we talked about it and they wanted to use mine. And the idea was that, I tried to be as honest as possible and knowing everyone else was going to have a chance to talk.
CR: This is on your website, obviously, the official break up note is written by Trey.
Last Friday night, I got together with Mike, Page and Fish to talk openly about the strong feelings I've been having that Phish has run its course and that we should end it now while it's still on a high note. Once we started talking, it quickly became apparent that the other guys' feelings, while not all the same as mine, were similar in many ways -- most importantly, that we all love and respect Phish and the Phish audience far too much to stand by and allow it to drag on beyond the point of vibrancy and health. We don't want to become caricatures of ourselves...
CR: Did you feel you were there or getting there?
TA: Getting there.
CR: Not there, but getting there.
TA: I feel, and this is the honest truth, and I would like to say this to whoever is listening that loves Phish, and I love Phish, Ok? Nobody loves Phish more then me, I want to say that, I understand, cause you know what I mean? But in the last 2 years there were a lot of moments where we were getting sloppy, we don’t practice as much and it’s natural. It’s not anybody’s fault but I don’t want to see that, you know what I mean. And I think that these people who are writing, its hard for me, because when I play, I look out at the audience and I really want inclusiveness, at our concerts, I think that’s obvious, I look to the last row, and I try to include people, so I’m with them, I miss it too you know what I mean? But its natural, and I also think, this is just something I’m just going to say, one of the things I’ve noticed since I made this announcement is that everybody over 30 thinks its great and everybody under 30 doesn’t understand it. Not everyone but... people…
CR: Everybody over 30 thinks its great?
TA: Yes, for the most part, I haven’t seen people closer to my age; I’m 39. People close to my age who don't totally understand.
CR: What is it do you think it is that they understand?
TA: They've got, they understand life from a… point of view.
CR: In other words, they have lived life long enough; they have lived long enough to know that certain things, no matter how beautiful.
TA: Have to go.
CR: Change.
TA: You gotta’ let ‘em go.
CR: That human beings change that your life changes.
TA: Exactly.
CR: New people enter, new ideas, new experiences, new directions, new forks in the road, all of that…
TA: And that the gravity and inertia is to make you be who you were 10 years ago. Believe it or not, it is. I saw you guys 10 years ago and it was X, just the yelling from the crowd “DO THAT OLD SONG... DO THAT OLD SONG” and its great, I like it, but at a certain point, you feel this is not inertia that is pushing you to grow and change as a human being. I listened this morning to the Roadrunners, no, uh, you know, uh, Jonathon and the Modern Lovers version of this song they do called 'Dignified and Old' and its ya know, “Hey kids, hey kids, some day ill be dignified and old.” Well, I was ya’ know, thinking this is the greatest song ever written, that this gravity towards pulling you to do what you were doing at 18 and 20 years old is not coinciding with what I know that I’m feeling at this point and time that we tried much as we could as a foursome to progress and age gracefully.
CR: have you been talking this out with anybody before you walked into that room today?
TA: Yeah.
CR: Who?
TA: Well, I hadn't gotten to the point where I was verbalizing it clearly, but, umm, certainly my family and some of my real close friends who had been addressing me about it; not about stopping Phish, but, something’s gotta give because you look exhausted. Page, has been calling me regularly for the last year, not just me, but him too, both of us, ya know, as an example, like I said they are going to have a chance to speak for themselves, I think you’ll find that it wasn't that surprising when I brought it up.
CR: Here, this idea ought to be expressed also, you guys had it the way everybody wants it to be…
TA: Right.
CR: Everything was on your own terms.
TA: Right.
CR: Everything was on your own terms.
TA: Yup.
CR: You lived where you wanted to live; you made the decisions you wanted to make.
TA: Right.
CR: You sang what you wanted to sing.
TA: Yeah.
CR: There was no record producer, there was no anybody saying, Phish will do this.
TA: Right.
CR: Ya’ know, you guys had it the way most musicians most creative artists…
TA: Right.
CR: …would love it to be.
TA: Right. And that’s the point, this is the last example of that and I want to look back on this, and I know this is right, so that’s what your saying, that’s exactly it, we made the decisions, no one is going to tell us what to do, so 20 years from now when I look back on this I want to know we did the right thing. That’s it, what we had was... beyond lucky, like you were saying, we are aware of that. I count my blessing every morning. I can’t believe that such a situation arose but I think that needs respect, that kind of situation.
CR: We also have to say this; I'll finish with your statement.
So Coventry will be the final Phish show. We are proud and thrilled that it will be in our home state of Vermont. We're also excited for the June and August shows, our last tour together. For the sake of clarity, I should say that this is *NOT LIKE THE HIATUS*, which was our last attempt to revitalize ourselves. *WE'RE DONE*.
CR: How do you like it when I say those words? "WE'RE DONE."
TA: Well…
CR: It’s been, go ahead.
TA: I like it... That’s the hard thing... I haven’t had any doubts about this. Ive had people express their anger in the past. Its been hard for me to, I'm the person that wants people to feel good, so I want to respond and I’ve been feeling that I've gotten to the point in my life where I cant do that anymore, its not serving anymore.
CR: You end by saying this, and I've got to give you credit.
We thank you all for the love and support that you've shown us.
CR: I mean, there. Your final thought is about the audience, without them, there is no Phish.
CR: You don't seem to have any doubt, you're not thinking, “Oh my god I'm going to say this the way I'm saying, we're done, its over, we're not playing games here, folks, this is it, you want to see the Phish, now is the time, come.” You're saying we're not worried about our commercial success, we knew that was there, it was riding strong. We've had good tours; people were coming to see us. We decided to make this, there is no sense of you saying, “Oh look, I've got some time here, I might change my mind...”
TA: No, no.
CR: “... I don't know what's going to happen, you know, I may fall back in love with it. We might rediscover the magic a month from now...”
TA: Oh, that's not going to happen.
CR: “...when we do that, something could turn us around, you know, don't give up yet folks, there's always, I have to say this is what I believe, I'm sure this is the course I'm on, but, you know as long as we're out there performing, something could change our minds.”
TA: I've never been so sure about anything in my life. It took, uh; I know this is the right thing. I know it. I, um, I don't know. One person sent in a letter that said this is your, Trey's ego, egomania or something. My thought about that was that I think people feel like we're pulling the rug out from under them or something, but, how can I explain this, I have to at a certain point make decisions based on what I know is true in my heart. If I'm not doing something that's true and honest and from my heart, it’s not going to resonate, and that's what an artist is supposed to do. So, when I saw you interview Bruce Springsteen, and I thought he did Born in the USA, and then he left the E Street Band and did Nebraska, then he stayed home for eight years, and then he went back on the road for eight gazillion shows, and that's the way it goes, you know. You have to follow your heart. If you're making decisions based on keeping a bunch of people employed, I think that eventually that's going to start to sound stale. No matter how badly you want it to...
CR: Inevitably.
TA: Yeah. And so I probably, I feel like from Big Cypress to the end was a lot of exploring on everybody's part, and the hiatus was an attempt to say, well ok, lets break the whole thing down and maybe we'll come back or maybe we won't. That's what we said. But of course everybody was just like, "is it next week?" and anything you did was a kind of intrusion on the Phish world. If somebody went out a did a tour or an album a little bit, well its good but its not Phish. To speak about the other guys, I was proud to watch Mike, for instance, do an album with Leo Kottke, who is one of my heroes and go on tour with him. Um, you're holding that up there, um, I'm completely and utterly sure. And I also am pretty confident that some day, if people don't get it already, they will.
CR: This is part 1 of the conversation Trey and I have. Part 2 will be a look back at Phish and a look at some of the things he's doing now.
Transcript © 2004 PBS.
This interview was transcribed by Mike Nestrud and Marnie, and edited by Trevor Norris.
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